Following Wayne Jacobs (who heroically hung out for a £225 reward for his find, forcing his local museum to launch a public appeal to raise it) come two more “purely-for-the-love-of-history” detectorists.
Alistair McPherson and “another treasure hunter who wishes to remain anonymous” (one wonders why!) have made various treasure finds but once again donating them to their local museum doesn’t seem to have occurred to them and once again an appeal is having to be run to pay them. The items comprise gold jewellery dating from the Bronze Age to the 12th century and come from a field at Clarkly Hill near Burghead and so far Elgin Museum members have donated £2,100 to the fund. [To make a donation send a cheque payable to the Moray Society or visit the museum at 1 High Street. Cheques should be accompanied with a note stating the donation is for the Burghead archaeological fund.]
Curator David Addison said: If everybody in Moray gave 50p or £1 to the museum we’d have no problem at all. To which we might add – and if Alistair and his pal simply renounced their right to payment there’d be even less of a problem!
It transpires though that these aren’t the only artefacts they have recovered from the field. Since September they have dug up 66 Roman coins, Roman brooches, a suspected bronze shield stud, a glass gaming piece thought to be Viking, a star brooch that appears to be identical to one worn by a Jewess whose statue stands in Germany – and just last week an elaborate snake-shaped belt buckle, thought to be Iron Age. What’s more, according to the press report at least, they have already sold six additional items to the museum – including the Jewess star brooch, a child’s brooch and a Bronze-age strap end.
Clearly, this is an intriguing site and Fraser Hunter, of the National Museums of Scotland has expressed an interest in conducting a proper archaeological excavation. One might therefore think these two love-of-history hobbyists would wish to stand back until that happens and maybe ask to be part of it rather than carrying on treating an intriguing site that’s deemed worthy of propoer archaeological investigation as their personal treasure pit from which they hope to extract a succession of items to sell to the museum or (had the items been found in England or Wales rather than Scotland) anywhere else.
Compare this behaviour to that of seven-year-old Isobel Reynolds of Horsham….
She recently found a bronze age arrowhead while helping clear an allotment and promptly donated it to the town’s museum. Well done Isobel! Perhaps the Portable Antiquities Scheme will feature her on their website, as an example of proper behaviour. We fear that won’t happen though – for fear of offending the “I found it so I want paying for it” brigade.
We should emphasize that many detectorists wouldn’t dream of selling finds and think the practice is contemptible. But many others do. Since neither thoughtful detectorists nor PAS say what they really think about selling finds fresh from the soil, it falls to us to say it:
It’s moral pigmyism. And the Treasure Act rewards system isn’t there because anyone thinks anyone ought to be rewarded, it’s there because it is recognised many heroes would keep quiet and sell the items elsewhere.
52 comments
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05/05/2009 at 13:57
Gary Brun
Just to go on record.
I would have no problems selling my finds after they have been recorded.
I have spent 1000’s of pounds on machines as well as my time.
05/05/2009 at 14:49
heritageaction
Mr Brun, we were in no doubt on both counts and are glad to place it on record.
05/05/2009 at 20:54
corinne
These finds are subject to Scotlands Treasure Trove Nigel – and are not available for sale as you suggest to “anywhere else” – as you are well aware its a different ball game altogether up here 🙂
06/05/2009 at 05:27
heritageaction
Fair point Corinne, I’ll amend the text to make the distinction between Scotland and England & Wales clear.
06/05/2009 at 10:49
corinne
Thanks Nigel
06/05/2009 at 11:03
corinne
For a broader picture of the detectorist’s working responsibly with the local museum and Dr Hunter the following should be also read too
http://www.northern-scot.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/7676/Mystery_of__royal__ring.html
and from page 24 of the UKDN newsletter
http://www.forumukdetectornet.co.uk/phpBB2/download/file.php?id=75367
06/05/2009 at 11:32
heritageaction
Cheers Corinne. As we both know, the closer to and the more like archaeologists detectorists are the better for everyone and everything, including them.
06/05/2009 at 11:55
corinne
Nigel you sound like my mother putting words in my mouth ! 🙂
There is a place for both sets of skills – when they work together pro-actively as peers it can be a good and fulfilling experience for both. It works both ways – both can learn from each other.
06/05/2009 at 13:04
heritageaction
Sorry Corinne. But you should always listen to your mother.
I absolutely disagree with the often-voiced concepts of “separate development” and celebrating la différence and think I have logic on my side as there can be only one best way of conserving the resource not two, and archaeology world-wide has developed the only right set of standards.
Working together as peers within an archaeological framework is of course perfectly sensible and EH have laid out a Rolls Royce template for that. But the further hobbyists depart from that the greater the problems. “Best” resource conservation largely precludes unnecessary, unstructured, random and unrecorded intervention (not to mention personal acquisition and profit-taking) – why shouldn’t it? Yet an awful lot of “metal detecting” involves all those departures from the ideal and in logic must involve unnecessary damage.
I know that can’t be said of you and others but you and others aren’t who the heritage whiners are whining about. The whine is about the damage. If the rest of the hobby acted like you or others then we wouldn’t have anything to complain about – but they don’t, so we have. Alternatively, if they come up with a completely different means of conducting their hobby that is equally non-damaging as archaeological methods then that would shut us up as well – but they can’t as it doesn’t exist – or at least, I’ve never heard anyone outlining it.
06/05/2009 at 13:51
corinne
The bottom line for this particular example of “responsible” detecting you have used as an “example” of “detecting for money” is that these guys have done everything “by the book” and involved the local museum and NMS archaeologists from the start and continue to work with them.
To berate them on this blog over whether they have disclaimed / or not, any ex-gratia payment from the Treasure Trove in Scotland (and I don’t know either way) for any of the finds they have reported is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Surely Heritage Action can do better than this Nigel?
I could perhaps understand derisory comments from the “heritage whiners” if the detectorist’s had withheld their finds or sold them privately or even caused any damage by their actions – but that is not the case.
Heritage whiners on this blog and other continue to berate and belittle those metal detectorists who DO things in a responsible way – if that stopped then I wouldn’t have anything to complain about too 🙂
06/05/2009 at 17:25
heritageaction
I really don’t think we’re scraping the barrel Corinne.
Our point concerned how bizarre it is to have local museums forced to run appeals to buy local finds. Reporting the finds makes it no less bizarre. Isobel reported her find and also donated it, good for her.
We’ve had ten years of taxpayer funded liaison, education and persuasion, let ALL detectorists behave well ALL of the time in ALL respects, like her, rather than just some of them, and then we’ll be extremely happy to shut up. Asking too much? Hardly, if a seven year old can do it first time.
06/05/2009 at 18:05
corinne
Good for Isobel – and good for the detectorists you have decided to ridicule by apparently not disclaiming any ex-gratia payment from the acquiring museum.
Isobel had a choice (or her parents did) in recording her finds – these detectorists in your blog did not have that choice – there is no funded liaison, education and persuasion like PAS who I take it you are referring to here in Scotland. Find something, report it (not record but report), hand it over the majority of the time within a short time period. Its not the “Treasure Act” as you call it in your blog – its Treasure Trove.
I presume I am also the scum of the earth too, the sham hero, am only in it for the money and pants to the history for accepting a reward through the Treasure Act in England?
Really?
06/05/2009 at 19:00
heritageaction
Corinne, we haven’t published your last comment as it contains a completely unjust inference about our views, one which upon reflection you may well accept is totally wrong – in fact it couldn’t be less true.
Our points have been that the prospect of small local museums having to run appeals to finance rewards is bizarre and does nothing for the image of detectorists, and if rewards are not considered appropriate for professional archaeologists there seems no logical reason they should be payable to recreational or entrepreneurial or archaeologist-type detectorists, other than the fact that without them, in many cases, the finds wouldn’t be declared. I guess we’re entitled to believe that since there was much official and parliamentary dialogue at the time saying precisely that.
06/05/2009 at 19:20
corinne
Id prefer it if you did post my comment Nigel
07/05/2009 at 05:46
heritageaction
Your posting is now published Co, in sequence, and my response follows it.
“I presume I am also the scum of the earth too, the sham hero, am only in it for the money and pants to the history for accepting a reward through the Treasure Act in England?”
That is not a fair inference. As I have said many times if the hobby as a whole acted exactly like you and a few others there would be no problem. But the reverse is true and it causes great damage while falsely claiming it acts like you. Criticising the hobby is not criticising you it is criticising the many thousands who act nothing like you.
The sooner the law compels them to act like you not claim they do the better. That will be the day when – horror of horrors – Britain finally stops being kidded and puts its heritage protection legislation in line with the rest of Europe. How we can be criticised for hoping for that is entirely beyond me.
07/05/2009 at 11:06
corinne
Thank you for posting my comment Nigel.
The two detectorists you have mentioned here in this thread have acted in no way different to me or many other detectorists. That is what I find distasteful. These two are not bad guys.
The initial post is not critising the hobby in general and I believe it’s unfair selection of two guys who have done things correctly
07/05/2009 at 14:29
heritageaction
I fear we’ll have to differ in our perceptions of what’s distasteful then. And what’s worthy of pointing out because it’s widespread not exceptional and is therefore a matter of legitimate public comment rather than being unmentionable.
Personally I don’t think money should play any part in a recreational hobby that interacts with the public resource any more than it does for professionals or other interested amateur groups such as heritage whiners – several of whom have been known to find and report items. But what do I know, I’m not a detectorist, I’m just a stakeholder and taxpayer. Nevertheless, my misguided view is that it’s the old problem that so many in the hobby can’t get to grips with and so many outside it can – what’s legal isn’t necessarily right – or tasteful.
09/05/2009 at 09:43
Paul Barford
I am not sure why raising perfectly valid questions about the way our heritage is being treated gets (I think unfairly) labelled “heritage whining” by a “metal detectorist”.
I agree with HA that if the site will be excavated, it is a bit off that metal detectorists guys are still hoiking out goodies which then the museum pays them for. It seems to me that this is indeed questionable, and I do not see anyone from among the detecting milieu questioning it.
More to the point, how many metal detectorists are there in Scotland? Whatever the number is, I think its bound to be somewhat higher than the 300 or so that are annually reporting finds to the Treasure Trove unit. When 96.8% of them are doing it, then perhaps those who criticise the current status quo can be reprimanded and themselves belittled by spokespeople for the “detecting community”, but not before. This is not a “whine”, it’s a simple observation of the facts.
09/05/2009 at 10:32
heritageaction
Small point of information Paul, “heritage whiner” was used first on this thread by me although it was certainly first coined in respect of this organisation by a metal detectorist.
They have called us Heritage all-sorts-of-things over the years, presumably because people whose hobby is to try to conserve history for all are a bit of an unfortunate contrast to their own weekly passion – to take objects home for themselves muttering “you’re mine now, you pretty”. My favourite is “Heritage brownshirts” – coined by a self-confessed ex- nighthawk and hobby leader now turned metal detector retailer and exporter of same in some quantities to Ireland where it is entirely illegal. Such a label, bestowed by such an upstanding citizen, is something I treasure since it denotes we must be on the right track and I wear the badge with pride.
14/05/2009 at 19:55
Robert
Hi just been reading some of the article,s on here about metal detetorists ,nighthawks etc, and then found this. And i must say you dont like metal detecorists,? I also see that you tar them ALL with the same brush,. They may not all be good but cant all be bad ?, I see you dont like the rewards they get, Do you pay them ? does it come out of your pocket ?. Oh and one other thing i dont understand is how can you sell an item to the museum ?.Does it not have to be recorded and claimed as treasure ? .
15/05/2009 at 05:27
heritageaction
Our reference to the six items sold to the museum was prefaced by “according to the press report at least”. If it is erroneous we will gladly correct it.
“I also see that you tar them ALL with the same brush”
Absolutely not.
“I see you dont like the rewards they get, Do you pay them ? does it come out of your pocket ?”
Yes.
15/05/2009 at 07:44
Robert
Oh you dont see them all as bad so its just the money, Well if you pay them with your money why does the museum need to ask for donations ? We are all tax payers so we all pay one way or another, All this should be about the detectorist that does not record or report the finds and not about money. Its people with money that destroy our history , and you sound like one, its mine its mine and i am not going to share. How many items would never have been found how many important sites would never have been known if it were not for the detectorist ?. I was watching tv the other night and it was about a archaeologist and the items they had collected over the years a personal collection that should have been in the museum. So maybe they are alike, what would you call it perks of the job ?.
15/05/2009 at 08:43
heritageaction
“We are all tax payers so we all pay one way or another”
Precisely.
“All this should be about the detectorist that does not record or report the finds and not about money”
Precisely – and nearly every detectorist says it’s NOT about the money, it’s purely about history. Good for them, we agree, it should be. It’s a hobby, after all.
16/05/2009 at 09:12
Julian Evan-Hart
Corinne you speak a well-balanced and fair viewpoint. Everyone is entitled to their opinions….however all this obsession with ownership and selling is all old hat…Ive known archaeologists with superb coin and artefact collections as well as metal detectorists.Basically there are rotten elements on both sides of this argument I was once a coin and antiquities dealer and was offered many finds from official archaeological digs, more than the suspected nighthawkers who I sometimes encountered….This purile statement that archaeologists are simply not allowed by ethics to find and sell…so thats it then ethically they cant so they dont………. is a ludicrous holier than thou statement about as educated as saying metal detctorists are all thieving from society…I think you will find that responsible detecting has given a whole range of massive benefits to society that far outweigh the ocasionally night hawked coin or brooch. Archaeologists like the rest of us are not immune from bad human nature elements such as temptation or theft …..even with the cast iron protection and guidance of their ethics….Unlike you Corinne I admit to being unable to stay balanced in the face of so much self elected socialist style drivel. Bleat Bleat we are looking after the exhaustible resource that belongs to society…of course it belongs to us all to some degree, but only a few make an effort to get off their bums and locate it, but I dont recollect anyone asking for anyone to embark on a self elected mission to protect it. Too right there should be a reward, if one is not allowed by the state to retain items and if they are important they should not be, so rewarding people for honesty and effort and dedication in this society is hardly a bad thing…These arguments go round and round in circles…we must simply accept that bad elements exist on both parties, yes thats pretty embarrassing, however why focus on it. The combination of positive working together of both responsible archaeologists and detectorists is the future and the only way forward. I know this for fact as I have had the honour of working with several eminent archaeologists and together we have contributed masses of educational research. Both archaeology and metal detecting should rid itself of the political fungus thats creeps over everything…. (I once heard an archaeologist say “that only a Socialist attitude makes a good archaeologist”) which is rubbish!!!!they like many issues must remain free from politics as neither will conform to any given agenda…so why waste time trying to. In Gordon Brown`s England there are already too many non-jobs and self elected idiots trying to control every aspect of our lives…so live free enjoy research creativity without all these silly attempts at restrictions every little mini fuhrer seems intent on casting over us….The idiot comments above taking the likeness to Hitlers brownshirts as a joking comparison made by a dealer to himself are just typical of the loon comments one encounters in the so called anti detecting lobby.There is nothing commendable or amusing from whatever source about such a comparison, and am left wondering just what badge is being worn with pride here . Weed out these extremists in all avenues of life and just lets all concentrate with getting on and achieving the phenomenal results we all know that can be achieved working together. You may not like or agree with many things in life, have can an opinion on them, constructively argue a case against them using factual data (for a change) but please stop whingeing and whining…Im sure if these whingers sat down they could find something of far greater importance in todays shattered world to dedicate their “Ban everything” attitide…Cheers all Jules
16/05/2009 at 11:05
heritageaction
Mr Evan-Hart, in the half an hour or so it took you to draft your comments we suspect that your colleages will have removed about 30 artefacts from the record (perhaps far more as it is a Saturday).
Of those, some will be sold for personal profit and the great majority will not be reported to PAS.
We are aware that detectorists claim our figures are impossibly exaggerated and that a hobby of ten thousand people cannot possibly be having such a major and disastrous erosive effect upon the finite communal resource, year by year, but we beg to differ. It is that, not socialism, which motivates us.
16/05/2009 at 18:16
Robert
@ Julian Evan Hart. Well said and thank you..
@ heratigeaction . Maybee you should buy a detector and go and see what you can find,( or maybee you have tried already). Its just not that easy to buy a detector and go and find good items, Some detectorists search for months without any good finds, not all fields / land has finds on them. Why are you so against detectorists and rewards ?. it is greed or are you jealous , live your own life and let people live theirs..
17/05/2009 at 08:33
heritageaction
“Maybee you should buy a detector and go and see what you can find”
If we did it would not be on the basis of finders keepers (or EBayers) but more akin to the attitude of Isobel, 7.
Or Tammy, 9 http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/003301.html
“The tool will either be kept at the school or donated to Gold Hill Musuem”.
I guess Isobel, Tammy and we, along with the rest of Europe, are all too stupid to see it any other way.
17/05/2009 at 12:55
Robert
“If we did it would not be on the basis of finders keepers ”
Well maybee you dont have a detector, but how many archaeologist,s have private collections ? oh i see you have no comment on that one.
Mr Evan-Hart, in the half an hour or so it took you to draft your comments we suspect that your colleages will have removed about 30 artefacts from the record (perhaps far more as it is a Saturday).
wow you know how many items in half an hour or so you amaze me just like the silly counter, can you read minds as well ?.
17/05/2009 at 19:15
moray hunter
Elgin museum at centre of this blog is a independent museum , so if they acquire these items and any other they bid and win from treasure trove then they will be increasing their assets as well as the collection they hold. the publicity in the press will also undoubtedly increase visitor numbers which will boost their funds. and as far as i am aware even if these two lads forgo their just reward there would be no guarantee that the museum would be awarded these or any other items found locally as the placement of finds is up to the treasure trove panel which normally favours large regional museums where these items would disappear into some storage cupboard , but thats another argument . maybe nigel would rather these items appeared on ebay where they would disappear from the local area , as for isobel i wonder if her parents found three gold rings ,several silver rings a hoard of silver coins and several broochs be so willing to hand them over for nothing , i think not.. these guys should be applauded for being honest and going by the book not lambasted. and should be used as a model of the way things should be done.
17/05/2009 at 23:47
heritageaction
“these guys should be applauded for being honest”
Really?! So what about the rest of us, in our tens of millions? Are we also to be applauded for simply obeying the law? And be financially rewarded for it?
21/05/2009 at 08:27
Robert
Well no wonder we have nighthawks, and people not handing items in and selling our history. Its people like YOU with your greed and jealousy that is the biggest cause of it, Call your self heritageaction. I think you should stop this shoot first ask quetions later attitude. If they are offerd a reward then i dont see whats wrong with that, You take your FAT pay packet every week. you remind me of golum , its mine its mine . Run away to your cave and leave people alone..
21/05/2009 at 09:45
heritageaction
Thank you Robert.
Your contention that we are the primary cause of nighthawking, non-reporting and people selling Britain’s history is certainly interesting and it is by no means the first time it has been said.
As for Gollum, we agree that silently laying claim to shiny bits of history and taking them home as if they were one’s own is unsupportable in a modern Western country. Would that he was merely a fictitious character.
(In his defence, of course, it should be conceded that unlike the thousands that emulate him daily at least he didn’t have an EBay account.)
22/05/2009 at 18:33
moray hunter
this may seem frivolous ,but it appears gollum has an ebay account . perhaps this should have been investigated before the above statement was made , this shows that heritage journal speaks without looking ,speaks without listening and more importantly speaks without knowing .
24/05/2009 at 06:16
heritageaction
Detectorists should avoid Gollum imagery.
They present themselves as amateur archaeologists yet it is the secretive, self-serving and acquisitive aspects of the hobby that invalidate the claim. Consequently, while amateur archaeology is admired and encouraged internationally metal detecting is reviled internationally.
That’s not our doing; it’s purely down to the Gollumic behaviour of so many. Perhaps you should spend your time attacking that, not people that object to it.
24/05/2009 at 16:39
Julian Evan-Hart
Totally agree with all you say Robert. Nigel from Heritage Action when are you going to say something positive about metal detecting?…we hear all your negativity….surely you must consider something is good. Detectorists dont make website careers out of harping on non stop about the dishonest “personal secretive, self-serving and acquisitive” elements of a few archaeologists, because they realise archaeology overall is a superb cultural medium with massive benefits to society. As is quite clearly metal detecting yes we have our bad element too, but why focus perpetually on bringing such obvious facts to light?. Crikey you can find “shop a night hawk” facilities on some loon websites…you guys and the like are simply obsessed with negativity without a balanced approach..The only thing keeping an eye on state funded archaeological excavations is this so called “ethics” so why doesnt your website have a focus on the archaeological minority who thieve as well? I have not seen anything at all about this side of the issue and cant say Im that interested in statements concerning the obvious preferring to concentrate on the positive issues…. I keep saying (perhaps I too am making a website career too) that the positive benefits of metal detecting should be the focus. Look at the vast amount of academic literature, magazine articles, new books, talks, presentations, new finds, new coins, museum exhibitions etc etc. In the last three years I have had published over 36 magazine articles on topics ranging from aviation archaeology to the style and manufacture of minimissimi, as well as three metal detecting based books…and overall my efforts are just a drop in the ocean compared to others. Im honoured to frequently receive complimentary emails and letters from people. In fact yesterday I was given a prestigious county award for my published contributions to cultural and genealogical history through metal detecting. Im one of thousands of like minded contributors to our history through being a metal detectorist. So it seems the general public from who I and others have been “looting” from and stealing their heritage have deemed it appropriate to give me this award….funny that eh? Your whole argument is abit like having ago at Ford car manufacturers, because one or two of their production line products might be used for serious bank robbery get away cars….without paying any attention to the positive usage of the millions of remaining products…….using the innocent generosity of children really isnt that impressive when trying to make a comparison….whilst their actions are highly commendable for sure….bet they could not have guessed that their genuinely kind innocent actions would be hi-jacked for use against the metal detecting world. Anyway that took me 2 minutes Nigel (I type quite quickly you see) not expecting any of my questions or solid factors to be challenged (as usual) just more foggy factless statements. Political archaeology indeed!!!! the political bit I trust here is evading any facts, spouting minimal sensationalism, avoiding the truth, and mud-slinging whilst maintaining a blinkered opinion…………next you guys will all be claiming your expenses for erecting a new Artefact Erosion Counter at the top of Big Ben and we will eventually find out that you are all MP`s….which would explain many things!!!!!
25/05/2009 at 05:48
heritageaction
We note you wish for us to shift our focus of attentionh to “the positive benefits of metal detecting”. Unfortunately, since PAS says, very clearly, that most metal detectorists don’t report their finds to them in accordance with the Code for Responsible Detecting we find ourselves disinclined to pretend the benefits aren’t disastrously outweighed by the cultural damage that the hobby causes. It’s all about reality not spin.
As is recognised elsewhere. Fortunately for Ireland and Europe realism has prevailed and the buried archaeological resource of those countries is safer from the malign attentions of thousands of legalised help-yourself-to-it-and-and flog-it-on-EBay moral philosophers. In stark contrast, the process continues in Britain entirely without hindrance amidst outrageous simultaneous calls to “focus on the positive benefits”. We think Britain’s resource deserves the same treatment as Europe’s.
As for our citing “the innocent generosity” of children who hand things over and don’t seek to sell them, we’re afraid we aren’t going to oblige or convenience you by desisting from that. It’s your hobby, you’ll have to live with the embarrassing contrast or all adopt the same innocent generosity. It’s entirely up to you and your fellows.
15/07/2009 at 13:38
Julian Evan-Hart
Crikey do stop harping on about PAS and what they claim…its boring…are they your only source of opinion. Talking of opinions it would be nice to see something original in your accusations for a change…same old rubbish quoted time after time. Its not that you are running out of critical factors to levy at detectorists one surmises you never had that much to begin with…. I realise by now that you are totally incapable for a wider level of thought spectrum to encompass and focus on anything positive to do with detecting. Whilst Im sure too that some people are grateful for you self opinionated views on protecting the cultural heritage of several millenia ago whilst the present day cultural heritage of this country is being eroded daily by other weak minded individuals. As for cultural damage this makes me laugh, sort of like “playing ten games of bowls whilst the contents of the Armada unload onto our beaches” There is no place for this unctious “Uriah Heap” attitude you have of firstly self electing yourself of course dependant and with great reflection on what the majority of society would think. Not once in this blog have you ever actually answered any of the criticisms against other factions of society who have small thieving sections in their midst,….I wonder why you have never replied to facts such as archaeologists who have personal collections….I mean would you like to clarify your opinion on this one factor (surely even you are capable of this) and if you deem it to be as bad as metal detecting “theft” what are you intending to do about it?…come on Nigel you have singled out metal detectorists lets have a view on other assemblage reducing factions too shall we? How a responsible individual can actually think that Ireland and Europe are successful and that because the law says you must declare or not detect here… is a tad too naive for me, bordering on one just being rather silly. Europe in particular is crippled with a massive stolen and looted coin and antiquity problem because their strict laws have caused a colossal upsurge in collectors demand…..any idiot knows that and surely only an idiot would want this for Britain……we dont have to do everything Europe does you know Britain is worthy of some individuality. Im not embarrassed about the alleged “contrast” between persons handing items in for no reward and those who dont …thats called Human nature….Im making a point that in a largely adult past-time for one of our critics to utilise the innocent actions of minors is a little barrel scraping. Anyway TO RE-FOCUS
GIVEN THAT THERE ARE PROBABLY QUITE A FEW OTHER SMALL PERCENTAGES OF OTHER ELEMENTS OF SOCIETY WHO STEAL COINS AND ARTEFACTS
(1) I REPEAT WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THEM?…FOR EXAMPLE ARCHAEOLOGISTS / STUDENTS WHO STEAL FROM EXCAVATIONS AND CREATE PERSONAL COLLECTIONS…..ONE COIN OR ONE BROOCH IT MATTERS NOT ITS STILL AN “EROSION”
(2) COULD WE SEE YOU MENTION THEM AND OTHER SIMILAR “EROSION” SOURCES FROM TIME TO TIME IN YOUR ATTEMPT TO STOP BRITAINS ASSEMBLAGE BEING ERODED OR ARE YOU JUST FOCUSSED ON AN ANTI METAL DETECTING DIALOGUE?
16/07/2009 at 00:35
kelly
use talk so much shit bar corinne
17/07/2009 at 07:05
heritageaction
Well Mr Evan-Hart,
We criticise ten thousand people who help themselves to history, uninvited, and in a manner that would get them jailed elsewhere. Once you and they stop you will have no further tactical reason to criticise us. We look forward to the day.
15/01/2010 at 00:56
Mike Ross
I found out about this article after contacting Alistair and saying how good it was to see his reports on the finds he had made over the years. He was detecting in the county that I used to live and detect in about 15 or so years ago.
The reply I got from him was along the lines of did I create a computer application for metal detectorists to enable them to keep records of finds made and if so I was responsible for getting him into metal detecting in the first place.
I was proud to say that yes, I had created an application called Earthworks that was released if I remember rightly in 1999, and even more so to know that I had sparked his interest in metal detecting.
I had been in contact with Roger Bland regarding the application way back then but for the life of me all I recall was it was a positive experience.
By the way please remove the reference to where these finds are made as that plays right into the hands of the scum in the detecting world. The nighthawks and those who don’t seek permission from landowners. That is irresponsible reporting on your behalf regardless of the message you are trying to get across.
Perhaps you would like metal detecting banned or extremely restricted under law. This will achieve exactly what? Murder is illegal yet we have jails full of murderers. Burglary is illegal yet once again the jails are full of burglars. Banning or restricting detecting will clear out the honest folks but the scum will still be there doing their thing and then nothing found will be reported. The fields will be clear for them to ransack. No museum would get the staffordshire hoard for any amount of money as the nighthawks if they had found it would have sold it piece by piece through whatever means they had at their disposal. Thieving scum that these people are.
No. Banning or seriously restricting detecting would play into the hands of our common enemy. Any reasoning person can see how that would play out. I agree that things are not ideal yet, but prejudice and continued negativity towards honest detectorists is not the way forward.
While I have been away from detecting for a number of years I am planning on starting again. (As soon as I can convince my wife to let me go ahead and buy a detector.)
Since I was a little boy my favorite place to go was the local museum in Perth. I was fascinated by everything and the history around me.
Many years later I discovered a magazine about metal detecting and was blown away that I could find the type of thing I had seen in museums myself apparently.
Needless to say I got involved and found many items over a period of ten years or so. Most of these items were junk. Cartridge cases. Pre-decimal coins and the like. But it was still amazing to me.
On 2nd January 1991 I found a bronze age flat axe. I was like a kid again when I went to show it to the people in the Elgin museum. I showed them were it was found and pinpointed it on a map and off it went to Edinburgh to be claimed as treasure trove under Scottish law. I was a little childish in the fact that I had no clue as to where the £60 came from that I was rewarded with but it helped keep me in batteries for my detector. It was the only find of any age from that farm.
Eventually I did hit upon a site 4 years later that really was special. A lone set of fields that in the main did not seem special at all.
No particular history was known about the area but it was farmland that was regularly ploughed over. I only ever detected there for about 3 or 4 months before I moved down to the South of England.
In those few short months I found a number of items. I collected and pinpointed everything. I still have the letters and list of items found that the Museum in Edinburgh sent me. From pottery to a 9th century styca, (The Styca was returned to me and as I type I have it right here beside me.) James the 6th pennies to a pictish mount. However the vast majority of the items they kept and claimed under the Treasure Trove system. If you want I will send you an email with a scan of the documentation from the museum. Was I rewarded? Yes. I was rewarded financially by receiving around £600 or so. Do I feel guilty that I got rewarded? No. It helped keep me up to date by buying books that would enable me to continue to learn about what I was finding and the people behind these objects. I know from Alistair that this site I had found has produced very little since I left all those years ago. I was very thorough in my searches and was in a position at that time to detect every single week day for 8 hours or so each day and ‘scrubbed’ my coil close to the ground and always had the best detector of the day. So in man hours I spent a lot of time on that site over those three or four months.
If I had been working a normal job earning lets say £35 a day that would add up to over a three month period £2100 I could have earned in any normal job. To be so sarcastic about “purely-for-the-love-of-history” detectorists is disgusting if you take the time to actually do the maths.
To date, the above rewards are all that I have personally received over a period of 15 years actual detecting. Certainly is not for the money as you seem to be implying.
Yes Alistair and the un-named person have probably received much more in rewards than I have over the years but if you think that is the norm then you are either not living in the real world or just don’t care and will say whatever comes to mind to progress your own personal vendetta against ordinary decent people.
Whenever I talk about metal detecting to people I meet the first thing I say is it is the greatest feeling in the world to be the first person in perhaps hundreds of years to see that particular item. To hold it in your hands and think about who may have owned it. Why was it there? Was it lost and if so how did it affect their day, week or life. So many questions can come up.
I am proud the finds I have made are in the Elgin Museum. When my youngest grows up he will know that dad found that pictish mount or that axe head. He will be able to touch and hold the items I was allowed to keep over the years. Seeing them behind glass is one thing but holding the item and feeling the weight gets you that one step closer to the people who made and used it.
So why I am telling you all this. Well I want to offer you the chance to come detecting with me as often as you like to see exactly what it is like in the real world of metal detecting. What I mean by that is this.
From the very first contact with a farmer while I try and get permission to search on his land so that we will both find out what the fields are like. In fact after a little bit of research I will let you decide which farm we will contact for this experiment. If you can think of any other way that makes sure I cannot influence the outcome then I am all ears. You can if you wish pinpoint each and every find we make and keep a note of what was found.
On this field or group of fields you will be welcome to come at any time to follow me and report on the number of items recovered and what they actually are. If you cant personally come then can designate someone that you trust to report truthfully on the finds made.
Let me show you first hand what detecting is really about.
However in return, whatever the result, You agree to stop reporting in such a negative and unfair way towards metal detectorists such as those mentioned in this report. Of course you can be as damning as you like about those who search without permission or search scheduled sites. These idiots do nobody any favors. Also a full apology to these two decent folks who responsibly report their finds in a timely manner exactly as required by law for the derisory way you have talked about them.
If you are up to doing this, email me as I am sure you have access to my address and when I have purchased my new detector we can set the ball in motion.
Mike R
15/01/2010 at 06:55
heritageaction
Sir,
You repeatedly imply our problem is with “those who search without permission or search scheduled sites.”
It is not.
PAS statistics indicate that at least 60% of detectorists never report their finds to them as required in the official guidelines. We regard those individuals as irresponsible and worse. We favour regulation to ensure they DO report what they find.
Your claim that regulation will engender increased nighthawking is not well founded. See Ulster and Eire.
As for you or any other hobby detectorist taking or making any money for what is morally, indisputably communal heritage, that is preposterous and the sooner the position is regularised the better. If you wish to attract the same level of respect as, say, members of local archaeology societies, we suggest you act like them in all relevant respects.
In our view, the very best thing that could happen for metal detecting, archaeology and culture is for the 40% of responsible detectorists (of which we presume you are one) to say “YES, 60% of our colleagues don’t report to PAS and that is totally unacceptable, they should be made to”.
Clan loyalty, to a random person that goes to Tescos and buys a machine, is illogical and damaging.
15/01/2010 at 12:42
Mike Ross
You state the following,
“In our view, the very best thing that could happen for metal detecting, archaeology and culture is for the 40% of responsible detectorists (of which we presume you are one) to say “YES, 60% of our colleagues don’t report to PAS and that is totally unacceptable, they should be made to”.”
This I DO agree with. 100%. In fact I have said that in not so many words throughout my original reply. There is NO excuse to not report your finds. I am as sick and tired of the statistics shown by PAS as you are. However unreal I find them.
Yet in this article you prove that your statement of the very best thing that could happen etc is completely false on your part.
The above gentlemen do report and have reported and have a very good relationship with their local museum as well as those based in Edinburgh. Yet you find some other reason to lambaste them as that is obviously NOT good enough for you. Why don’t you phone the museum in Elgin and ask them directly what they think. You will find that they are very approachable and in no way judgmental of honest 100% reporting of items found by these gentlemen. Since this report was made Edinburgh have done a test dig on the site alongside the detectorists mentioned and are extremely excited about it. Do a wee bit of research to find out why or email me and I will tell you privately.
However I do question if the PAS statistics are truly indicative of the situation out in the field. I DO believe that there are some out there who do not report all of the finds they make but nowhere near the 60% as stated. This is a situation that I agree should be forced into change, no matter the numbers involved. Nobody has a right to dig and then hide the result of their digging. I repeat Nobody. Whether a Metal Detectorist or not. This is exactly why I offered for you or someone you knew to come along with me. To show first hand that to believe every one of the 10,000 that you mention in some of your reports are finding items every week or even every month is just not realistic. Not in this world or any fantasy world that some statistics seem to imply. A percentage of them will find a site that does produce items of historical and also financial value. This is true and these finds should all be reported and if any person is found to be hiding certain items then of course the full weight of the law should come down on them.
In your argument I guess you are against hobby artists selling any artworks they produce as these also may become part of this nations heritage in the future. In fact anybody who works for a museum or an archaeologist should not receive any payments as they should be doing it for the love of this nations history and not for the money. It is “morally, indisputably communal heritage.” I am pretty sure if you asked an archaeologist or museum curator to refuse his legal right to a wage as he should do it for the love of our heritage he would look at you as if you were mad and he would be right.
Metal detectorists in the main do it for the love of history and time and again will state they have learned more while metal detecting than they did at school. On the occasion where they are offered a reward for finds made they are equally right to accept this. Some do in fact refuse any payment but that does not make them morally higher up the chain than someone who does not. Farmers also come into the equation. Our heritage as a farming nation is under threat today let alone the past. I don’t know many millionaire farmers and sometimes this reward can be a boost to them and their way of life. Heritage and culture are not always about the past they are also about the present.
Of course we could go round and round the bushes and I am pretty sure you
will never agree with everything I say just as I am unlikely to agree with everything you say. However I will point out where we agree.
Everyone should be forced to report their finds. If the reported item was found in plough soil then there should never be a situation where this site is then put out of bounds of the detectorist. I say this as it has been proven time and time again and I can record video proof or show it first hand if you wish that no detector will find any single item below the plough soil unless of huge proportions. It just doesn’t happen. Pasture land or land that has never been disturbed by the plough is a different situation that should be looked at on a case by case basis. Although it could be argued that even on this kind of land the probable start point of a dig is hire a JCB and skim of the top several inches which kind of destroys the only layers that detectors can find normal items in anyway.
You seem to be of the impression that I am loyal to any detectorist as long as they don’t nighthawk or detect on scheduled sites. I apologise if this is the impression I gave you, as nothing could be further from the truth.
I must congratulate you on something though. Some of the stories you have covered in your blog have been very well thought out and very informative and dare I say it I agree with you on many many points. Standing stones being moved because they are in the way and the like… Surprising.
If only I could say the same about your attitude towards Metal detectorists, in particular the honest and law abiding ones who DO report their finds in a timely manner as is the case here. The knowledge that will come from these finds far surpasses any reward they may or may not receive. Of that I am very confident.
Mike R
15/01/2010 at 13:08
heritageaction
“However I do question if the PAS statistics are truly indicative of the situation out in the field. I DO believe that there are some out there who do not report all of the finds they make but nowhere near the 60% as stated.”
That is precisely what we complain about. You cannot possibly know what 60% of ten thousand metal detectorists do so why cast doubt on PAS’s figures? The statistics are all we have and there is zero reason to say they are wrong.
As for going out metal detecting with you, no thanks. We don’t believe collecting and claiming as one’s own items from the communal resource is something anyone ought to be doing (and metal detectorists are the ONLY people concerned with archaeology that do such a thing). It’s immature, selfish, self-seeking and wrong – ask everyone concerned with heritage outside Britain. You must do it on your own. We object to it.
If/when you do it under archaeological supervision as part of an approved project, rather than randomly for your own satisfaction alone, we’ll come and watch. Not until. It’s not your resource to deal with or own, see?
15/05/2010 at 12:51
Julian Evan-Hart
Ho Hum Mike I like your factual statements but see you have probably wasted as large amount of time as I have trying to show factual data and appraise the benefits of metal detecting. When someone`s whole goal in life is to portray metal detecting negatively no one can influence or deviate them, otherwise they lose their objective to life. This resource that keeps on being bandied about and that its not ours to trifle with…are just the comments of someone who is making absolutely no efforts on a comparable scale to us metal detectorists to recover our heritage. It is quite clear that unless we metal detectorists apply our skills to a “proper archaeologically suypervised dig” Nigel will never accept our massive benefits to society. In Nigels opinion rather than a metal detectorist locate an object it is far better to leave it mouldering and corroding in the ground…so quite how he sees his opinions being long term is a mystery as in several hundred years with the application of agro chemicals…(which must increase to meet increased demand) his precious untouched resource will hardly exist. Make no bones this is not about any other issues other than banning outright detecting so that Nigel and his like can carry on believing that everything we detectorists can no longer find will be found anyway by an academically qualified archaeologist. The one thing you will find about Nigel rather than answer any poignant questions…he simply doesnt…BIT LIKE A LABOUR MP REALLY!!!…otherwise if he were to engage on such matters he himself would very quickly indicate and high light how non-factual and weak his argument is….and he`s hardly again going to do that is he? Ive scanned all these associated blogs and not once has Nigel ever tackled any questions…not ever!!! In the metal detecting world and academic archaeological world this has become rather a standing joke…but he must be prepared for this as anyone knows if you dont tackle questions and simply proceed with a belief people soon start tiring of the whole show. Dont you just love his “(and metal detectorists are the ONLY people concerned with archaeology that do such a thing)” Oh yes of course…I know of a fair few people from students to organising dig archaeologists who have extensive personal collections…it may be wrong but its Human nature Nigel…so all the very best trying to change that. A long while back a friend of mine was a detectorist on a dig when he found a 5th Century solid silver cruciform brooch. Declaring it, the supervising archaeologist said “Brilliant I`ll look after that” Twenty years later my colleague went into the museum that houses all the finds from this dig, as he specifically wanted to photograph his old find of the brooch. Was it on the finds listings NO…was it in the museum NO…had the museum ever recieved it NO…so we presume the archaeologist is still “looking after it” Nigel dont be a fool and continue making blanket statements, that are non-factual. If someone said they think a life form from Mars is concerned about metal detectorists looting our heritage YOU CAN GUARANTEE OLD NIGEL WOULD CLAIM TO HAVE HAD MEETINGS WITH THESE LIFE FORMS.. So anyway here we go again lets see if old Nigel will break with tradition.
DEAR NIGEL I WILL WRITE THIS SIMPLY SO IT BYPASSES YOUR INGRAINED NEGATIVE GEARED MIND…..IF METAL DETECTING WHERE TO BE BANNED PLEASE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU BELIEVE WILL HAPPEN TO ALL THESE UNFOUND COINS AND ARTEFACTS?…..AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WHO WILL UNCOVER THEM FOR OUR HERITAGE?….YOU KEEP ON WHINGEING ABOUT HERITAGE…DONT YOU THINK ITS IMPORTANT TO FIND IT AND CONSERVE IT BEFORE ITS TOO LATE?……….. INSTEAD OF EMBARKING ON A SINGLE MINDED CAMPAIGN WHICH IF SUCCESSFUL WOULD CONDEMN THOUSANDS OF OBJECTS TO NEVER BE SEEN. PLEASE DO USE YOUR “RARE-SENSE” I say rare-sense because to say “Common” implies that such sense is indeed frequent which would not be true in your case….Who would fill the museums, cos as far as I know state-funded archaeology is in a serious decline….so perhaps its best no-one finds anything eh Nigel then at least the precious heritage you keep moaning about and doing sod all yourself to locate would be truly safe and you could carry on as sort of a grand self elected wizard looking after it……In a democracy sadly one always find Nigel`s who use their freedom of speech and opinion to try and mess up other peoples enjoyment whilst doing absolutely nothing themselves about the point they criticise……so go on Nigel whats your theory to replace metal detecting then? A load or organised doddery old sods and long haired students standing around marvelling at a lump of abraded pottery no doubt….metal detecting and archaeology are now intertwined forever..look at the books, academic resources, new finds, discoveries of unique coins and objects……look at the attitudes of both parties Nigel……times have changed matey…..so dont fossilize…get out there and have some fun in life but a metal detector and share the great joy of adding to the discovery of our heritage instead of always being so damned negative.
Julian Evan-Hart (had some time on my hands this morning…so thought Id waste it!!!!!
16/05/2010 at 09:23
heritageaction
Golly, all that might have had more impact had we not seen your confession on another site that you don’t report what you find to PAS!
Please don’t trouble to blaggard us again until you trouble yourself to do that.
16/05/2010 at 19:28
heritageaction
We have received your subsequent posting explaining why you not reporting to PAS is in fact the right thing to do. We do not agree and do not think publishing your posting is wise, lest you convince other metal detectorists.
That is the end of your contributions here until you practice “responsible detecting” as defined by all the archaeological and metal detecting organisations in the official Code rather than as defined by yourself.
16/05/2010 at 22:44
Mary Barker
Oh dear, Julian, you seem to be blowing a gasket. May I suggest you sit down quietly and get your apostrophes sorted out before pontificating here (it does show a lack of attention to detail you know, and where such a lapse is so patently obvious it really does reflect on the validity of the rest of your argument – re: MDing). The same might apply to your use of capitals. No need to shout – shouting only serves to illustrate that no-one was really listening to you first time around.
17/05/2010 at 08:58
Pjackson
So this chap digs stuff up and doesn’t report it to the Portable Antiquities Scheme? What a creep. In most countries metal detecting gets you jailed so to have the freedom to do it but STILL not fully co-operate with PAS at all times is pathetic. So much for “we’re all responsible”!
19/05/2010 at 21:09
Julian Evan-Hart
Thank you for your response and ensuing modification to P. Jacksons comments In light of my communication….A MOST WISE DECISION ON YOUR BEHALF. Being generous I will accept the reference to being a “creep” in the light of the posters IGNORANCE as having someone make themselves look a fool without me having to say a word is a rare most enjoyable commodity…Julian
20/05/2010 at 09:42
heritageaction
Glad to have obliged. We are gratified that you have confessed that you don’t report all you should to PAS. Many don’t, few have the stupidity or arrogance to say so. In the light of it the public will no doubt apply a whole host of disparaging terms of their own to you of which pathetic and creep are very mild examples. They have a right, for it is they not us you are insulting and injuring.
20/11/2010 at 10:43
PRSUTAGUS
heritage action team why do you keep censoring my texts asking questions you dont like ,
20/11/2010 at 11:01
Pat
Prsutagus, you’ve sent 23 Comments but you’ve been so keen to attack us you haven’t noticed we stopped publishing them long ago and told you exactly why twice. Here’s our explanation for the third and final time, Goodbye.
…………………………………………………….
That’s all.
https://heritageaction.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/submission-guidance-for-articles-and-comments/
Farewell.
See you back here when you subscribe to (and comprehend) all ten of the EMDA Pledges.
http://www.ethicaldetecting.org.uk/
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